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#1 Re: Terraformation » potential venus problem? - volcanism » 2005-05-24 09:38:17
We've touched on Venus terraforming. Here's something I thought of-it appears that since Venus has no active plate tectonics, that basically every billion years or so the pressure builds and it blows and totally resurfaces with new lava-which would destroy any life on it after terraforming. Could we perhaps drill holes in the crust to encourage pressure release?
#2 Re: Terraformation » future mars climate - What do you think?? » 2005-05-23 10:17:02
I picture a maritime North and continental South. The North will have mild winters even far north. The lack of a landmass in the Arctic would keep cold air masses from developing like we in the US get from Canada. However, since it will be moist, I would expect significant winter snow where it is below freezing, but not deep subzero temperatures unless there is a permanent water ice cap at the pole. That will depend on currents and also overall planetary temperature. Summers will be mild and rainy.
The tropics will be moist near and north of the equator but expect a Sahara-like desert around the area south of Tharsis about 10-30S latitude. The climate overall will be drier (but wetter than similar Earth locations due to a taller atmosphere), with hotter summers and colder winters. There will be less winter snow than in the north but much colder temperatures. The landmass around the South (antarctic??) pole will produce supercold air masses that will plunge north into the mid-latitudes. The areas to the East of the Hellas sea and probably Lake Argyre will have significant lake-effect type snowstorms during the long winter. This will make these areas the most fertile agricultural land in the Southern Hemisphere due to snowmelt in spring but still warm summers.
#3 Re: Water on Mars » A huge, frozen sea lies just below the surface of » 2005-05-23 08:55:09
Well, this discovery, coupled with the fact that radar equipment has detected Hydrogen at many locations below the Martian surface tells me that we might have more water on Mars than even the most optimistic of us thought.
#4 Re: Water on Mars » Mars never had water - So-called water flows are liquid CO2 » 2005-05-23 08:46:43
Then explain this:
#5 Re: Terraformation » Speed Bumps to Terraforming (Anywhere) » 2005-05-23 08:43:50
Reserved about terraforming? I also a little. But the challenge to me, and maybe to most of the people on this forum, is just to brainstorm what are the possibilities. For me personally it's the technological issue that fascinates.
My personal feeling is that at least some planets/moons should never be terraformed, te keep them as 'cosmic parks'. And of course, cautiousnes is very important.
I think Mars will never be terraformed, neither colonized, because it is to uninteresting to do there something. There is nothing to mine we cannot find on earth. There are only 2 real reasons for continuous human precense on Mars, each have very limited importance, that are:
1. Tourism
2. Areography
Bull. Mars can, and will be terraformed, and will eventually be a green, white, and blue marble like Earth. We've been in love with Mars (as humankind) for centuries. We will make it a home for humans, a new race of humans. Mars is the new New World.
#6 Re: Terraformation » oceanic tides on mars? - Would Phobos and Deimos have any effect? » 2005-05-23 07:26:19
Will Mars have tides in it's future oceans influenced by Phobos and Deimos? Or just the Sun? Solar tides would be weaker due to distance, and since Mars' two moons are but a speck of dust compared to Luna, they'll have little effect. However, they are much closer to the planet than Luna is to Earth. Do you think there will be noticeable ocean tides?
#7 Re: Terraformation » Our Future World(s) - Just a little terraforming fantasy » 2005-05-23 07:23:29
More likely, 2120AD: Earth Destroyed by Failure of new Fusion reactor because the idiot who built it was taught Maths by a teacher who didn't know maths and was incapable of telling whether the book was wrong.
Mars Government traced the responsibility back to a government Committie on Mathematics (in 2003AD) who suddenly decided to do it a different way.
Could happen...
#8 Re: Terraformation » Our Future World(s) - Just a little terraforming fantasy » 2005-05-22 18:33:18
Picture this-in the Earth-year 6500:
Earth, having been through ups and downs, has stabilized it's population at 11.2 billion and thanks to the engineering advances gained from terraforming Mars and Venus, Earthlings have installed a very weak (2% insolation reduction) solar shade that keeps Earth at our favorite 15 degree C global temperature.
Mars-this was the first world to be terraformed. Today, Mars has a thriving ecosystem. Towards the end of terraforming, a solar lens was developed that keeps insolation at 88% of Earth level and varies through the year to soften the effect of the orbital eccentricity of the planet. Today Mars has an ozone layer and artificially maintained magnetic field powered by solar electromagnets. Despite the "artificiality" of the world it is 99% self-sufficient and only requires a small team of 100 scientists from all 11 martian nations to maintain and/or repair the lens and magnetic field.
Notable facts-the low gravity of Mars has made for some interesting wildlife! Most Martian birds have wings much smaller than their Earthly counterparts-watching them fly is quite a shock for an Earthling! Several species of trees that especially like Martian conditions grow to astounding proportions. The Martian Aspen, known for it's bright yellow autumn colors all over the plains and highlands of the Southern Hemisphere, grows to over 700 feet tall (certain specimens get to 1000 feet) with a root system that can span a kilometer across in even an average-sized tree. Humans have adapted well to the planet-Martian Basketball uses a hoop 21 feet off the ground. After the first couple generations, it was clear that Martians were a new "race" of humans so to speak. They are thinner and taller than their Earthly counterparts and tend to exercise more (both of necessity and ease since low gravity makes movement much easier) and human males average 6 feet 11 inches in height (females average 6'7). While Earthlings and Venusians can visit Mars rather easily with a week or two of low gravity training, native Martians can only visit Earth or Venus after a long period (a year or more) of 1G training, exercising, and drugs.
Atmospheric Density-1.1 atm (was made much thicker than originally planned due to N2 importation from Venus and the breakdown of NH3 used in terraforming)
Atmospheric composition - 18.7% Oxygen, 79.4% Nitrogen, 0.094% CO2, traces of Argon, CH4, NH3, and PFC's
Human Population-933 million
Water Coverage - 48.2%
Average Temperature - 12.5 degrees C
Venus was the next step. The project was started about halfway into Mars' terraforming as the Nitrogen was needed as well as some of the CO2. A 100% shade was placed in front of Venus that froze out the CO2 which was generally removed or broken into carbon for building and oxygen that was either used on Venus, shipped to Mars, or stored in orbital warehouses for space missions. In fact for over 3 centuries (in Earth years) Venus' number one and number two industries were oxygen and carbon production which was purchased by Venusians, Martians, and Earthlings alike.
During terraforming, the spin of Venus was increased to a tolerable 27 hours with the use of high-powered nuclear rockets in a "pinwheel" fashion around the planet. This did slow the cooling effort but was worth it-all models showed Venus not having settled weather or a useful ecosystem with such a long day.
Today, Venus is like a large tropical paradise with lots of shallow seas, small islands and a few small continents. Like Mars it has an artificial magnetic field and and a natural ozone layer. The climate is warm, and despite a solar shade keeping insolation at 95% of Earth levels, only the top of Mount Maxwell has ever seen snow. There are no seasons, just a slight variation in day length (only noticeable north of 65 degrees latitude) through the 225-day long year. Equatorial regions are very hot and humid (there are some deserts around 25 north and 60 North). A typical equatorial climate would be highs near 35 Celcius and lows around 30C. Rainfall is abundant. At mid-latitudes, temperatures are warm but more more reasonable-highs around 27C and lows around 20C. Polar regions are more erratic since day length does change noticeably with the 3 degree axial tilt, but frost is rare even here.
Atmospheric Density - 1.55 atm
Atmospheric composition - 17.1% Oxygen, 82.5% Nitrogen, 0.044% CO2, traces of Argon, H2SO4
Human Population - 2.2 billion
Water Coverage - 78.8%
Average Temperature - 22.9 degrees C
#9 Re: Terraformation » Projected Marsian Population? » 2005-05-20 07:43:41
Well, although I am an environmentalist, I don't think the Earth really has a set carrying capacity. Malthus thought that Europe would be destroyed by overpopulation. That was over a hundred years ago and it didn't happen.
My basic idea is this: As the population increases people will do two things naturally --
1. People will find better and more efficient ways to produce food, power, etc.
2. People will voluntarily limit their family size if they feel like they are running out of room or resources.
These two things are already happening in industrialized nations. The problem is when people aren't educated enough to control family size or if they are too beaten down and hungry to innovate.
Another problem is when rich, educated societies (like the U.S.) waste resources. For example: instead of helping to control AIDS in Africa, America had to start a war with IRAQ. The government also pays some farmers not to produce to keep prices up/stable instead of just destributing our surplus to famine stricken parts of the world.
The "carrying capacity" of a planet will increase and keep pace with the population of that planet if the people are educated and unselfish.
Mars right now has a carrying capacity of zero, yet we are already talking about millions and billions of people living happily on that planet. People create the carrying capacity of their planet.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Earth turned into a perfectly sustainable Courosant (spelling?) city planet supporting hundreds of billions of people.
I knew it would only be a few days on this forum before I saw an America-basher come along.
#10 Re: Terraformation » Desert Mars - Will Terraformed Mars be largely desert? » 2005-05-20 07:36:25
So, perhaps a terraformed Mars would have a milder, more equable climate, at least as rainfall is concerned?
#11 Re: Terraformation » Desert Mars - Will Terraformed Mars be largely desert? » 2005-05-19 11:07:24
It's an issue of geography. The way water will fill in on Mars would create a flooded North and a desert south.
Would a terraformed Mars have enough arable areas to support agriculture? Or to support plant growth for 02 production? Most of the North will be buried under the sea, and what land there is would have a cool, probably cloudy maritime climate. Wet enough for agriculture but probably too cool and cloudy for ultimate production. The maritime coolness will be amplified by the fact that Northern summer is at aphelion (which could be altered by a soletta that changes solar concentration with the seasons). The South will have the sunshine and warmer temps, but since most of it will be very high ground far from bodies of water, probably as dry as the Sahara except maybe near Hellas which will almost certainly be a large inland sea.
#12 Re: Terraformation » Mars Needs Nitrogen » 2005-05-19 08:08:46
If we were going to do this, I'd be much more interested in Venus' Nitrogen than it's CO2. We could use the CO2 but need the N2 even more. I wonder-is it possible to cool and condense out the CO2 leaving only the N2 (and maybe a little CO2) to Mars? Even though Venus has only 2.5% Nitrogen that's still enough for 700mb of Nitrogen on Mars and still over a bar on Venus for a future Venus terraform if we decided to go that route.
#13 Re: Terraformation » Mars Needs Nitrogen » 2005-05-18 12:17:53
Nitrogen is much rarer than water or CO2 in this universe, so anything you crash into Mars will bring maybe 100 times as much water and CO2 to Mars as nitrogen. I doubt you'll get enough nitrogen to Mars that way without making it a water planet (or maybe a glacier planet!).
-- RobS
Is there another gas we could use instead? I know we need some Nitrogen for plants, but could Argon or something serve as a buffer gas?
#14 Re: Terraformation » Mars Magnetic Fields Problem » 2005-05-17 20:48:36
Yes, Karov.
I do understand the basic principle of using a vast loop of current to create a planetary magnetic field. In fact, if I remember my physics correctly, the existence of an iron core inside a planet would serve to enhance the efficiency of such a field(?).
And I do realize that, given sufficient energy, engineering prowess, and human willpower, there's no fundamental reason we cannot undertake such a task.
And, what's more, I do admire your vision when it comes to planetary-scale engineering and your obvious enthusiasm for such projects. I also look forward to the time when such amazing feats of technology will be achieved - and I admit they may be closer than I imagine. Perhaps I'm too timid. Perhaps I'm forgetting what Sir Arthur C. Clarke has taught us, that most failures of prediction stem from a failure of nerve - technology almost always advances farther and faster than most of us foresee. So you may well be right to pursue this line of reasoning so vigorously.
One or two particular thoughts I'd like to air, by the way, while I'm on the subject .. I always imagine that any loop of superconducting material around Mars' equator will need to be able to carry such an enormous density of current that it's construction will be untenable for a long time. Also, I wonder whether the localized fields generated by the massive current will have detrimental effects on the environment in the immediate vicinity of the equator.
There are questions being asked here on Earth about the potential (pun unintentional .. sorry! ) for power lines near residential communities to cause cancer - and the electric current in these cases is negligible compared to the current we'll need for our Martian project. If so, will it be necessary to fence off large swathes of equatorial real estate to establish a safety buffer zone either side of the cable? ???
Admittedly, even if such a buffer zone were necessary, we may decide that it's a fair exchange - to lose so many millions of hectares of habitable area at the equator in order to allow unfettered colonization of immense areas of radiation-shielded land to the north and south. Who knows?Personally, my hope would be to create an atmosphere dense enough to shield the surface from harmful radiation, even in the absence of a global magnetic field. I feel that this is probably a more attainable goal in the short term. Such an atmosphere, it's been established, will last for millions of years, despite the ravages of constant 'sputtering' by the solar wind and the blasts of Coronal Mass Ejections (thank you Cindy for alerting me, and perhaps others here, to the surprising power and frequency of such events. :up: )
Just touching on a 'pet theory' dear to my heart. I still have hopes that Mars is much more volcanically alive than it's been given credit for and that it may still generate a substantial global magnetic field at intervals. This pet theory, as I've often mentioned, depends to a large extent on the as yet unconfirmed ideas of Dr. J. Marvin Herndon about natural fission reactors in planetary cores.
Earth's magnetic poles reverse every so often, with the North Pole taking up residence in Antarctica and the South Pole moving to the Arctic Ocean. Have a look at http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/A … .html]THIS ARTICLE, called "When The Poles Flip" by Larry Gedney. :-More than 20 years ago, the first conclusive evidence was found on the sea floors that the earth's north and south poles have switched places repeatedly over the course of geologic time. The last reversal occurred some 710,000 years ago. For most of a million years before that, the north pole was the south pole and vice versa. Epochs of shorter duration on the order of 50,000 years can be found in the geologic record, but for the most part, each seems to last between 200,000 and 1,000,000 years.
No one knows how long it takes to make the transition. It may take a few years or it may take a few thousand (a few thousand years is about the shortest time interval that can be reliably measured from sediments and lava flows on the ocean floor). What is known from measurements of remnant magnetism in ancient pottery shards is that the earth's magnetic field has weakened by more than 50 percent in the past 4,000 years. In other words, we may be headed into another reversal.
If Mars is still geologically active, it seems reasonable to assume that its poles reverse periodically too - perhaps more sluggishly than Earth's since its smaller volume means it's probably losing energy to space faster.
It follows that it must also have intervals during which there is no global field, just as Earth does. In the case of Earth, these intervals may be years long or thousands of years long - no one knows for sure - and any such intervals on Mars may be correspondingly longer.
My view is we could conceivably have arrived at Mars, just by chance, during one of these pole reversals. We could be pleasantly surprised, in the millenia to come, to find our Martian colonies protected by a brand new natural magnetic field, without having to create it ourselves using mega-engineering.On that 'Pollyanna-style' note of fairy tale optimism, I'll sign off. :laugh:
(Thanks for your patience. :;): )
I wonder if we could give Mars a larger Moon in proportion to Mars as Luna is to Earth and give Mars a good tug. This might reactivate the magnetosphere and also volcanism.
But where would we get this moon, and how to get it there? Ceres, maybe?? Vesta??
#15 Re: Terraformation » Huge Mars Trees and awesome weather - Would Mars' low gravity be interesting? » 2005-05-17 20:36:00
Here's a couple thoughts I had. The low gravity would make nature on a terraformed Mars quite interesting. This is under an assumption of a fully terraformed Mars with a 1 bar atmosphere. I realize many other options are more likely (say a 600 mb atm) but just for kicks:
First, imagine how tall Sequoia trees could grow! Perhaps a quarter mile high?
Heres another zinger. Thunderstorm cells would be enormous!! They say bc of low gravity, it takes 3 times the air to equal the same density it would on Earth. Which also means the pressure and temperature gradients as you go up in the atmosphere would be less sharp. Thunderstorms develop when heated humid air at the ground rises and encounters cooler air below the dewpoint and in severe t-storms can go all the way to the stratosphere where it makes that flat anvil you see at the top of cumulonimbus clouds. Well, the pressure gradient being smaller would make the stratosphere higher up, would it not? So-the storms would initially develop slower (and probably more infrequently) due to the smaller temperature gradient-BUT-imagine how high the clouds could get! In the tropics on Earth they can get to 60,000 feet. Imagine a 34 mile (180,000 feet) high cumulonimbus cloud!!! Now, Mars has some wicked weather. I predict that a future terraformed Mars can have an acceptable climate but some wicked storms will be quite likely.
#16 Re: Terraformation » Speed Bumps to Terraforming (Anywhere) » 2005-05-17 13:04:57
Thats a good comparison. I like that one. I am about 100 pages into Blue Mars right now and through out all the books it really seems that KSR is a green. I know that I am a green. Not only for Mars though. If it was up to me I'd have so many missions to Venus, Mars, The moons of Jupiter, and Titan. But I guess that is only if it was up to me
When talking US politics I am not a "Green" at all but when it comes to space and planetary terraforming, I am green all the way.
#17 Re: Terraformation » Methods of terraforming - How to go from bone dry & lifeless » 2005-05-17 12:35:14
Well, I guess the things that come to my mind are:
- L2 mirror to melt to poles (M2P2 or Mylar).
- pump lots of PCFs into the atmosphere
- crash comets to bring water and other stuff
- nuclear bombardment of the poles
- soot factories to inclease the albido
- electromagnet(s) at L1 point to block solar wind
- importation of nitrogen from titan
- importation of hydrogen from the outer gas giants
- concentrated sunlight lasered out from inner solar system
- introduction of plant/incect lifeSome of those are "easy", some are long term, some are well agreed upon and some are my own crazy ideas.
I say we put a soletta at the L point between Mars and the sun. Like this:
Thats a single unit with two mirrors attached to reflect sun back to the planet. Offset it just enough that there will be the effect of a "double sun" in the Martian sky. With allowance for a less than 100% efficiency we should get about 75% of earth sun level compared to Mars' natural sunlight of 44%.
This way we don't have to light the night side and throw off day length.
#18 Re: Terraformation » getting mars oxygen - Is mars regolith Iron Oxide? If so... » 2005-05-17 08:17:56
Is the surface of Mars (which makes it red) made of Iron Oxide? If so, can the O2 be extracted? If we could do that we'd have Oxygen (for us) and Iron (to build with).
#19 Re: Terraformation » Water, not CO2 - Bad for terraformers? » 2005-05-17 08:15:49
If we left the CO2 as is and just added N2 and O2, we'd have a breathable atmosphere (I believe the human cutoff for CO2 is 10 mb or more) and plants would love it! With a few super-greenhouse gases and/or a well-placed soletta, we'd be home free.
Getting all that N and O is another matter...
#20 Re: Terraformation » Solettas and sollasers - Limits of illuminating worlds » 2005-05-17 07:32:45
I think if we can effectively design a system that can magnify star/sun light by several times and shade it (indefinitely?) we could terraform everything from Mercury to the Jovian moons to an Earthlike temperature. It would also open up opportunities far into the future to terraform worlds around other stars, even cooler "k" class stars now considered too cool to harbor life. This said I think its generally easier to warm up a cold planet than cool off a hot one.
#21 Re: Terraformation » energy on mars (electricity, motors, etc) - types of energy to use on Mars » 2005-05-17 07:00:16
Here's some different ideas of what we can use on Mars to power cars (or whatever we'll get around with), trains, machinery, and to provide electricity in general to colonies and such. As you all know, there are no fossil fuels on Mars.
Solar-will be great in areas with few dust storms, but if/when terraformed, as on Earth many areas will be too cloudy to be effective. Plus, the sheer amount of acreage needed for the photovaltic panels is not efficient
Hydrogen-Burning hydrogen (assuming an eventual O2 atmosphere) would yield only water vapor (which Mars could use) but where do we get the H2 in the first place??
Wind/Hydroelectric - Wind may work now, but the thinness of the air would be an impediment. On a terraformed Mars, sure. Hydroelectric could work if we made some sort of dam.
Ethanol/Methanol - If/when Mars can grow outdoor crops, this could be viable. Of course to burn anything you must have oxygen first. But to grow crops outdoors you'd need at least SOME oxygen...
#22 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What kind of social system will be on Mars » 2005-05-17 06:53:30
It will have to be largely capitalist, probably moreso than say the US-as only capitalism will ensure the ingenuity needed to be successful at colonization and/or terraformation. Sure, governments will probably take the lions share of initial investments (first missions and settlements) but once the ball is rolling entrepreneurship will take over. Social welfare will be largely just for maintenance of domes, terraforming (which should still be contracted to private enterprise even if government funded) atmosphere, colonies, and all the "maintenance" necessary to keep Mars alive.
As far as actual type of government, it will probably break off into several nations similar to and/or governed somewhat by their parent nations. A settlement opened by Americans will be similar to the American Federal system of government. If done by the British, similar to their system, and if done by the Russians, same.
#23 Re: Terraformation » solar intensity - mirrors and solar magnifiers/concentrato » 2005-05-16 16:44:34
If we arranged them so that no light fell on the night side, all of it was reflected to the day side back onto the planet a couple degrees from the real sun, they day length would be fine, it would only increase daylight hours a few minutes on either end.
#24 Re: Terraformation » Mars Needs Nitrogen » 2005-05-16 14:38:42
Here's a thought-Nitrogen serves two purposes primarily-nitrogen fixation from plants and buffer gas for animals (humans included). Say we could create an atmosphere of say 0.5% CO2, 20% Oxygen, 40% Nitrogen, and 38% Argon?
I realize getting Argon may be as hard as Nitrogen but perhaps from a liveability standpoint it could work.
#25 Re: Terraformation » Venus Terraforamation - Can we colonize the death furnace? » 2005-05-16 13:37:17
Assuming available technology:
Build a solar shade in the lagrange point between Venus and the Sun. At first, it will block 100% of incoming sunlight. This will take a few centuries but will turn Venus into an iceball of dry ice and a Nitrogen atmosphere. Induce chemical reactions to break apart the CO2 into Carbon (which could be retained for building-on Venus graphite would be the new wood) and Oxygen, which then will be combined with Hydrogen for Water and the rest for breathing. Once that gets started then the water and rocks can make the rest of the CO2 into carbonates. Add more water with an ice asteroid or two from the Oort cloud. If feasible, hit the planet just right to increase the spin to something earthlike.
If we can either increase the rotation or use solettas to simulate a day and night close to Earth's, we get a Venus with 80% water and no seasons (no axial tilt and nearly circular orbit) that has a planetwide climate ranging from hot tropical at the equator to something like Mexico City at the poles (like a high elevation in Earth's tropics) and probably lots of rainfall. We'd keep the solar shade in place but restructure it to let in about 50%-70% of incoming light to keep temperatures reasonable.
Even if we could adapt plants and animals to a 4 month long day-night cycle, I would think that having 2 months of sunshine would still heat things up way too much and 2 months night way too cold.