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#1 Re: Terraformation » Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere » 2005-03-15 22:03:33

Everyone seems to agree that in order for terraformation to occur, there has to be some form of radiation shielding. Two different methods of radiation shielding brought up have been magnetic shielding and dome building. We know that magnetic shielding works and we know how it works, so what exactly would  be needed in building a dome protect anything underneath it from radiation(dome thickness, etc)? What would be the desireability of an easy to construct dome with magnetic shielding than a hard to construct one with conventional radiation shileding(or would building a conventionally protected dome not be much harder?) ? 
(By the way, please, Im not trying to argue about other requirements for terrafroming Mars, I just want to discuss Magnetic Fields and/or other alternatives for radiation dampening)

#2 Re: Terraformation » Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere » 2005-03-13 09:33:16

Reducing the radiation levels across Mars brings Mars one step closer to being a hospitable world. I agree that at first any kind of human settlement on mars will have to be contained in domed structures, but as time progresses and perhaps other terraformation techniques are developed, it may become more feasible to start terraforming the whole of the planet. If that happens, then the existence of a magnetosphere on mars would be essential to any planetwide terraformation attempts. Sure it would take massive energy requirements to build such a device, but it would allow for life to take hold on a much larger scale (and thus accelerate the terraformation process itself) on mars should martians decide to attempt to terraform the planet. With regards to having orbital magnetic field generators, I doubt they would be effective because of the distance required for stationary orbit and the fact that any magnetic field produced by these sattelites would not actually enclose the populated areas they were intended to protect.

#3 Re: Terraformation » Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere » 2005-03-12 21:56:22

http://www.islandone.org/Settlements/Ma … l]Magnetic Shielding

I believe that the creation of a martian magnetosphere is essential to any long term terraformation plans. Doing so would not only help to prevent the long, slow leak of atmosphere from Mars, but it would also help protect the surface from harmful radiation, which even with earth atmospheric pressure and temperature would probably still reach unnacceptable levels during periods of intense solar activity. Utilizing the concept outlined in the aforementioned paper (link), I believe that it would be technically possible to employ this concept on a massive scale, effectively creating a martian magnetosphere. Any thoughts? Anyone care to try number crunching to see what it would take to give mars a magnetic field compareable to Earth's?

#4 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-12 20:38:46

Well that just about settles it. Great information to consider. Looks like it would take the mother of all nukes to make any kind of difference, so unless any of you are willing to consider devoting earth's resources to the construction of potentially civilization threatening weapons, we can forget about using nukes to warm up mars. Thanks everyone for all the input, and thanks marsdog for such a clear picture of why this idea wouldnt be feasible.

#6 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-11 18:16:02

Thanks for that site Shaun, that is very useful. However, I need to know the relationship between kilograms of CO2 released and millibars of added pressure for mars to work this out. Any suggestions?

#7 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 19:35:01

By the way how did you come up with Earth being at near Ice age conditions? Where does it talk about how much temperature increase will occur in relation to the amount of CO2 released?

#8 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 19:27:07

Thanks Shaun, thats a good bit about the actual amount of CO2 at the polar caps. To me at least, it just goes to show that we have along way to go before we can understand Mars well enough to terraform it to our needs. Do you know where I could find any data with regards to the distribution of Dry Ice on the Mars? Any spectrometer readings, educated speculation, etc.? Also, how many tons of CO2 would have to be released to raise the surface temperature by 5 Kelvin? What would be the change in atmospheric pressure if this amount were released? I think If I can get these data I can determine whether or not this idea is a possibility.
*Edit* Thanks MarsDog, Im sure those will be useful. Ill have to look at them but that may nail the lid on this idea. Thanks for the input.

#10 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 16:51:21

Thanks for all the input. Does anyone know any sites I can visit or books I can turn to to learn how to put this thing to the numbers and see if it might release a significant amount of atmosphere?

#11 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 13:42:02

I agree. Nuking mars would definitely not be an immediate solution. Terraforming, changing an inhospitable planet into a hospitable one would require far more than just release of atmosphere and raising surface temperature and atmospheric pressure. All I want to know, once again, is how much gas might be released due to a nuclear detonation, and how this might alter the temperature and atmospheric pressure of Mars. I would also like to know how long it would take for any significant radiation produced to dissapate, and just how significant such radiation might be in relation to current surface radiation levels. Im not really concerned about the ethics of this, I just want to know what the outcome would be. I think that if nuking mars proves to be a possibility that may work, it could be incoporated into a larger plan for terraforming which I have yet to develop, and may not develop if this option proves totally unfeasible.

#12 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 13:18:08

ugh... I came across that chart before I posted... trying to see if I could get some numbers to stick in... but Im afraid high school physics doesnt incorporate what I'd need to figure this one out.

#13 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 13:15:45

Your right, it does sound more sensible, if youre thinking in terms of unlimited resources. Zubrin says that in order for a mirror to be powerful enough to really make a difference, you need a huge 200,000 ton orbiting mirror. Ouch. If it is at all possible to raise the surface temperature of mars with nukes, heck, we could have a warmer mars for much less the cost of building such a device or say, moving a comet to hit mars, and we would probably have it a lot quicker too. Nuking mars and all seems ridiculous, I know, but its just speculation, an idea that Id like to see proved possible or impossible.

#15 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 12:53:11

Im not sure anyone knows just how much dust would be released as result of an impact or detonation.  I doubt (but if Im wrong please correct me) that a nuclear detonation at either of the polar caps would release enough dust into the atmosphere to significantly alter the global temperature of mars or even to alter it outside of a certain radius, and simply want to know how much gas it might release per megaton, and if any volume of gas produced by nuclear detonation would be significant enough to alter Mars temperature and atmospheric pressure.

#16 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 12:13:31

Thanks for the response, but Im just trying to find out if detonation of nuclear devices at areas of high concentration of CO2 would significantly alter the surface temperature and atmospheric pressure of mars. You do bring up a good point about radiation though, but Im still not sure as to how significant it would be in comparison to present surface radiation.
Can anyone tell me these things?
What would be the amount of gas released in relation to the megaton yield assuming a realistic efficiancy of energy transfer? 
How would this alter avg surface temperature and atmospheric pressure on Mars?
How long would it take for any radiation in the atmosphere produced by such a detonation to dissapate?

#17 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2005-03-10 10:00:07

In The Case for Mars, Zubrin suggests employing various means to trigger the release of CO2 on Mars and thus raise the atmospheric pressure and overall surface temperature of Mars. Among these are the use of giant mirrors, releasing huge amounts of greenhouse gases over a long period of time to raise the avg temperature of mars so that a chain reaction of greenhouse gas release will occur, and several other methods that all must be incorporated on a vast scale to be effective. I was wondering if a more immediate solution to releasing CO2 on mars might be found in the use of nuclear weapons. Specifically, what would the effect be if a ten megaton nuclear device was detonated over either of the polar caps of mars? I havent really done any research as to what the effects of this might be, and it is my assumption that it would trigger the rapid release of greenhouse gases. Any thoughts?

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